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 Post subject: Facebook Groups
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am
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I figured the community outreach section of "the official online planning and discussion forum for Playa Del Fuego", as labeled as such in the Glossary section on page 2 of the G.U.D., would be the ideal place to post this. Mods, Admins, move as you see fit.

tl;dr: there isn't one. Get a drink, make a sandwich. I think it's important. You might too. Or not.

One of the 10 principles of burning is Radical Inclusion. The text of the principle is as follows: Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community. I realize Playa Del Fuego is not Burning Man, but it is a regional burn, so I'm assuming the principle applies. Another of the 10 principles is Communal Effort, whose text reads as follows: Our community values creative cooperation and collaboration. We strive to produce, promote and protect social networks, public spaces, works of art, and methods of communication that support such interaction. I choose to mention these two principles not because they are more important than others, but because they are relevant to the idea of "community outreach".

Facebook is a social network that is highly ubiquitous. Hence people use it for everything across the spectrum from official to non-official, from personal to completely non-serious communication. It is because of it's ubiquity and it's trashbag nature of compiling all sorts of expression and communication into one convenient package, people use it as the go-to for information about any sort of group of people. This includes regional burns and the community who attends.

If we, as Burners, believe in the ten principles enough to call them principles of a community, the ways in which we use the Facebook group is contradictory to a number of them, but for the sake of this post I'm only referring to the two principles mentioned above. As people use Facebook as the go-to as their source of information about an event or group of people, and this idea has been supported by individuals and businesses regarding their social media image as a part of their public face, a great deal of the first impression that those outside of the burner community get of Playa Del Fuego is a bunch of utter nonsense, unhelpful text, and cyber bullying. People can take a joke, some cannot, but if the first impression of a community is any of the three items I mentioned, it steers people away from Playa Del Fuego, Burning Man, and burners in general.

I know this from personal experience. People who enjoy art, enjoy radical-expression, enjoy being surrounded by a community that does not judge, but accepts, still exist in the default world and have learned to live within it as best they can. I attempt to bring these people into my community and they are immediately met with what amounts to bullshit they simply do not have time for, because they can't get a straight answer from people in a Facebook group who they expect to be "accepting" and "into communal effort" and "participation" and whatever the heck that means, who scream at them phrases like "RADICAL SELF RELIANCE" and "DO-OCRACY". They get a sense that Burners are assholes. They wonder what kind of prank I've played on them that I would want them to associate with a bunch of dip-shits, and who the fuck do I spend my time with when I'm so very much not like these people?

Those I want to bring into the community are so turned off by the behavior they see on a Facebook group, they react in ways that would never allow me a moment's consideration of wanting to include them in the burner community. They aren't this way, frustration at the public face of a group of people makes them that way. Having brought a number of virgins to the community, I now tell them I'm not going to invite them to the Facebook group until after they've been to the burn, and this statement alone gives them pause. They trust my judgement however, and after they've experienced the Burn we can talk about it and they can agree with me or not if my reasons made sense.

I'm not going to change how anyone acts on Facebook, nor do I want to or can. I do want to make people aware of how they've turned the Facebook group into an "inside joke" that those who are virgins to the community are automatically outside of. They've turned the price of admission into experiencing frustration and cyber bullying, when by virtue of what the burner community is there shouldn't be a price of admission. You can tell me that "Facebook isn't a burn" and I will agree with you wholeheartedly, but someone who isn't a burner doesn't know that. To them, the social media face of anyone represents a piece of their public persona. A burn event might be a temporary zone purposely removed from certain aspects of society, but Facebook is that trashbag of personal communication a click away from an activist's cause a click away from a page of memes a click away from their favorite bar, beauty shop, poet, artist, or friend. If a company's official Facebook page responded to someone's post in the way that members of the Facebook group respond to posts of new members, there would be a news story. People would have opinions. Someone might even lose their job.

I know that the Facebook Group, or the myriad of "troll" Facebook groups, is not in any way an official means of communication for the Playa Del Fuego Event. The greater community at large, the one we exist in, doesn't know that. A little blurb on the sidebar of the group telling people it's not official isn't enough. The only mentions of the P.O.N.Y. forum on the .org site, an actual official source of communication for the event, being a little link at the top that says "Forums", or a mention under the "Tickets" menu as a link for a ticket exchange, is not enough. Two mentions of the P.O.N.Y. forum in the G.U.D. on page 2 in the glossary and pg 16 under "Communications" is not enough, especially when the link provided doesn't work, and just getting to the G.U.D. on the .org site requires knowing it even exists. A link to the "Burning Pony Express" on the .org site, which upon clicking leads to a page with one of the first lines in large bold type reading "We don't do social media, we do this newsletter" is not only misleading because the link to the burning pony express does not work, but also contradictory because two links down the menu on the .org site is "Social Media". Then under the social media link, a paragraph that states,

"Playa de Fuego's presence on Facebook, Google+, Tribe.net and other social media sites are unofficial and considered fan pages. Most of these are unmoderated and may contain some official information along with lovely pictures of bacon and ads for the shiniest pants in the world. They may also contain mis or disinformation and have trolls under the bridge. It is suggested to use your own judgment before taking any info on a fan page too seriously."

is a wonderful succinct statement that deserves to be quite visible to those who would most need to know such information, like virgins. Yet it is not that visible because it is within a link that is far down the list on the .org site, who no virgin would be aware of unless they decided to ignore a Facebook page on google search results, which I reiterate, is the go-to public face of most individuals, businesses, and communities.

It may not be purposeful but we have steered those seeking information on Playa Del Fuego to visit the Facebook Group page for information, through a lack of a concerted effort to make the P.O.N.Y. easier to find, through broken links to official forms of event communication on the .org site, through misleading information on our lack/non-lack of social media usage on the .org site, and through broken links to official forms of event communication on an already difficult to find G.U.D. which I'm not sure as to where it is even first mentioned to anyone that it exists.

It may not be purposeful but our being a burner on a burner Facebook group page, radically expressing ourselves as we ought to as burners, is actively un-including would-be burners and giving them an impression that does not accurately represent a community that exists based around ten principles, two of them in particular about having no pre-requisites for inclusion into our community, and "producing, promoting, and protecting social networks... and methods of communication that support such interaction."

What can be done about this?

I have some suggestions.

1. Claim responsibility. Telling me that Facebook isn't a burn is code for "I don't have to adhere to the principles here." While you may be right, someone new to the community may be setting their foot through those gates for the first time because of their hearing of or about the 10 principles. Immediately being shown an opposition to them, when they've had no introduction to "Radical Expression", "Gifting", or any of the other principles you think not adhering to the principles falls under, is akin to telling them it's all bullshit, and they don't got time for that with all the other bullshit in the world. Also, "do-ocracy". You're part of the community. What you do and don't do will give an impression. I'm not asking you to be a "virgin-sherpa". Just be aware of how someone new to the community might feel being "new", like you once had to be.

2. Use the P.O.N.Y. and fix the mis-directing or broken links on the .org site. It's an official source of information for Playa Del Fuego. Discussions could be had there devoid of memes, stray snark, an ad, you know, all the shit that makes Facebook Facebook. Trolls are always going to find a way to troll. The beauty of the P.O.N.Y. is that there are threads with threads in them, so you don't have to be exposed to all the mis-info and dis-info and "art" posts all at the same time. You can actually focus on getting/giving information. Plus some effort is required to post on the P.O.N.Y. unlike Facebook, which is built to make posting anything you want as easy as possible because more content equals more ad-views and clicks. Actually fixing the links on the various other pages of the .org site would help in making sure virgins or anyone else get to where they need to go. Making the top link bigger, or bringing more attention to it as the first thing people see after visiting the .org site would be a step in the right direction.

3. Make it obvious that the Facebook Groups are unofficial. I realize that no one is paid to moderate the Facebook group(s). I realize that you can approve anyone that requests being added. I realize that "Facebook is not a burn". But if you care about the community in the slightest, realize that the world at large considers Facebook real-life enough that a group called "Playa Del Fuego Official" or "Playa Del Fuego 0ff1cial" or "The real Playa Del Fuego group please stand up" is going to attract virgins who don't know any better and are looking to meet people or find information about the community, and the harder you make life for them by not cluing them into how to actually navigate to an official information source, the more frustrated they will become, and the more likely they'll tell people that Burners are a bunch of assholes. Make it a pinned post that informs people this is a fan page. Put a link to the actual official information sources in your cover image. Put it in bold on the first line of the group description that the page is unofficial. Or if this somehow limits your "radical expression" or your artistic direction, don't just accept everyone into the group unless you know who the hell they are because you know they already know it's a fan/art page! Put in some effort. Message them. Ask if they're looking for info or if they just want to see ridiculousness. And to a page that wants to post official info: Maybe don't? Yes, I realize you want your burner buddies to know things. But maybe help out the community as a whole by not baiting people into thinking they're in the right place when they aren't?

4. Actually make an official Facebook Group. The option exists, although for various reasons I doubt it's a good idea, and I don't think people can be trusted to curb their behavior in ways that "the public face of a community or group entity" would like to show the world. Or don't alter the way anyone behaves and accept that your use of Facebook is going to turn away a number of people as I've mentioned long ago in the above post. As a counter-argument, it probably would also attract people but, "community outreach" to me doesn't jive with cyber-bullying and frustrating people away from a community that espouses particular statements enough to call them "principles".

5. Do what I do. Tell virgins I want to introduce to the community not to go on the Facebook page until after the event. So far it's worked well. They trust my judgement and after the event is over they gladly visit the page and friend all those lovely people they met, and by that time they are willing to either overlook or take part in the less feel-good aspects.

I'm aware that taking such measures may be contradictory to some of the principles. In actuality, I think the use of Facebook is entirely against all of them in some form, but that's a post for another day. A burner dealing with other burners is entirely different than a burner dealing with a virgin burner or a non-burner, in regards to the principles. They are the public in that they are not a burner. They may be included in the community but they don't know what makes this community in any way different than theirs. Until they know about the community or have experienced it or become a part of it, there are different expectations placed upon the interactions between themselves and other humans. The Facebook group is mostly full of people who are familiar with each other and have interacted in a burn space. If Facebook wasn't as ubiquitous as it is, this wouldn't be as important a topic, but since it is, this is one way "in" for people across the planet. Let's be aware of what an outsider experiences, because as much as you want to treat them as an insider or think that everyone is on the level, they aren't yet. And that could be damaging for both parties, as well as make "radical inclusion" and "communal effort" seem like throw-away ideals that we could totally espouse on principles, but only when it doesn't conflict with me being me.

For those of you who think that somehow changing the way you act on a Facebook group may be affecting someone's perception of a burn, I'm far more concerned with affecting their desire to even make it to one.

 Post subject: Re: Facebook Groups
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:59 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:07 pm
Posts: 223
Hey Booga!

I think this is a pretty good post and highlights one of many reasons why - IMO - FB is not the place for official communication. People tend to be in a certain (shall we say more snarky?) mode when posting there, which is different from the mode they are in when posting here or in other places.

You seem to be angling parts of your post - not entirely but surely in parts - to those who "run" PDF and the communications and the website, etc. As one of those people, though I do tend to put posts on the FB groups to spread word of PC meetings and ticket sales and such, almost invariably my information and links lead right back here to the PONY as this is an officially used place of communication.

One of the advantages the shift for people to hang out and chat first on FB has given is that snarky and trolling chatter and replies are generally not on the PONY anymore. So I would encourage you, if you are ever dealing with a friend who has been turned off by the FB groups, to perhaps suggest your friend come here to the PONY and read some of the recent threads. They are generally just business and org-running topics, but they should be an obvious counterpoint to the behaviors on FB and perhaps will give a clearer picture to a new person how very specific the FB phenomena is versus what happens here and what happens at the actual burns.

Just to be clear, I love the underlying message of your post. My response isn't meant to shut it down, but just to give some additional suggestions of what can be done with the situation as it stands.

As to those you suggested...
1. Claim responsibility - Love this idea! But I think it will be difficult to switch the mode of several thousand people in a medium that has that mode as it's rather established culture. I.e., FB is a rude and snarky place in general, and the PDF pages are no exception. Now I am all for continuing to encourage people to check in with themselves and their behavior and look at the possibility of trying to be more actively welcoming for new folks that don't "get it" yet, but that's gonna be a big tide to turn and I don't think everyone honestly agrees with the turning of it. However I do think that putting out this voice of inclusion/compassion is still a great thing to do so that it too continues to be part of the conversation.

2. In so far as broken links go, if you notice some please tell someone! I'm not aware of any myself right now, but nor have I gone hunting through our links lately. And we do use the PONY! But because we use it for official business and not chatter and hanging out, it seems dead and boring to a lot of folks and most people choose not to get involved here (nor on PC calls), and that's okay. Not everyone has to participate in the same way. But this (and on PC calls) is where those event discussions do actually occur in official capacity.

If you have specific ideas for changes to the website please make a list and submit it! That's much easier to work with and act on than general ideas for changes. (E.g., list specifically what links, where on the page, at what URLs are broken; list specifically which banners and announcements on which pages and URLs you think should be changed and how...)

3. If you want to change how FB groups present, you should talk to the FB people about making FB groups more obviously unofficial. That isn't something "we" can just control. In fact as you may have noticed there are two practically identical FB pages for PDF (amongst the many that are out there), one very deliberately having chosen to copy the form and presentation of the other because it's funny (at least to some) and fuels confusion, etc. Point being, agree or disagree with the snarky nature of it all, that is not in "our" hands to change. Yes, members of the PDF community do moderate and configure those pages. But many different members, and I couldn't tell you who they all are, so that's why I'm suggesting you take that idea directly to those over at the FB pages; those pages are their own thing, related to and born of our community yes, but not officially run by or moderated by any PDF "authority" (with the exception of the official PDF page which leads us to...)

4. There is an official FB page! But much like the PONY, since it's only used for announcements and official business, it is not a place for hang out and chatter and snark and thus potentially presents as "boring and dead" to people who are looking to hang out and chat it up with their burner friends. (In fact I'm not even certain if it's generally open for posting such things.) Also, the older of the two practically identical FB pages is far more moderated and "on point" than the second, but what birthed the second was (at least in part) people not wanting to be moderated. So at the moment we have quite a selection of FB page/group representation* ranging from the official "boring" page of announcements and real info all the way to mega-snark town, and then many pages in between. So again, choose your own level of involvement there. I understand that new folk may not know that, but the situation is so dynamic that IMO it's better to actively help new people understand than by trying to regulate all expressions of PDF representation that pop up (which isn't something I'd want to do anyways).

*Note - I'm generally using the terms "group" and "page" interchangeably here, though I think there's a technical difference over at FB. I'm just talking about all the FB places we as a community go, spread info and misinfo, and chatter.

5. Depends on the person, YMMV, etc. But sure! If you think so for a particular person, go ahead.

Again, not trying to shut you down, but just trying to give a little more information to you as it relates to your post and suggestions. Again I love the underlying idea you're putting out here! Hopefully my comments are useful to you in terms of current set ups and thinking about how to specifically pursue those goals.

Now here's my final thought... Having made your post here on the PONY, you aren't going to reach the vast majority of people that your message seems intended for (which to me sounds like it includes the community members over on FB). I'm not sure if you've already done this, but if not I'd consider posting a link to your post here over on FB as a good way to get your message out.


Planning Committee Coordinator

 Post subject: Re: Facebook Groups
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:08 pm
Posts: 71
Location: Washington DC
you posted this during Transformus - sorry I missed it

tl;dr - you should continue to guide your virgins - but policy beyond that is impossible

anyway - the 10 principles are not laws - they are guidelines - but there is ONE thing that Facebook adheres to "The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory"

but let me explain to you why the larger "Unofficial" Facebook is the way it is BEYOND what you are asking - and it is because of the "Principals" - you can't say Radical Inclusion / Community without accepting the community you are walking into - which is a bunch of people with their own ideas on how to educate virgins - anyway

"any sort of moderation is against the principals - this is not offical - why do you even care?" - the only way to clean up the Facebook is to moderate every single post and make SURE that it is TOTALLY on topic - and now you want it to be a "safe space" - you want that and to adhere to Radical Self Expression?

it's just not possible with the level of moderation on the facebook group - which is currently passively enforced

"no Adverts"
"no ticket begging"
"no clickbait"
"no copypasta"
"no links to commercial facebooks via copypasta"
"no links with stolen content"
"no politics"
"Attachment Unavailable is always deleted"

after round two of ticketing we shift to active moderation and

"Keep posts related to the event"

the active moderators are Diana Smiles and me (David Dugard) - 2E / Darrel D advising

taking this to the community is only going to cause us to form into two camps (MODERATION)/(EXPRESSION) with a large amount of people just fueling the fires - this is an issue that can only be resolved not by making the Facebook less unofficial - but by making the official channels better

anyway - sorry about your virgins - but they have to learn sometime

PDF BoD Member
quare hoc dicere?

 Post subject: Re: Facebook Groups
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:12 pm
Posts: 243
This thread is of great interest to me and has much good in it from thoughtful people.

Booga you've a done a thorough reading of PDF's materials - citations impress me. The majority of what you wrote was about Facebook. The majority of what I write won't be. But much as Owlsa said so well, I don't want you to feel shut down. Quite, the opposite. I'd love to see you be the change you want to see.

In the land before Facebook burners of many flavors connected on Tribe.net and MySpace. So if possible, just forget about Facebook. Fuck it, replace that F word with "social media." Specific rules for ea. platform is inefficient. Asking the org to heavily moderate expression in a public space is hinky and creeper. Most social media is open source to all kinds of good and bad stuff by nature. G.I.G.O. (shrug)

Immediacy ends with "No idea can substitute for this experience." Sometimes you really do "gotta be there" an attitude you alluded to while conversing with virgins. For years I've avoided most FB groups because the meat space burn is so much better for my soul. Social media hath many words and passions, not always so much with the getting stuff done.

Booga you also mentioned the feeling of "Newbs vs Insiders." Ugh, Been around since Tribe.net and the often ugly mailing list burningass. The quickest cure for that is a few volunteer shifts! Inertia, marriage, and babies happen, too and peeps can be slow to work on succession planning. Newbie enthusiasm is one of the forces that drives burning culture. Before you know it you can be a jaded cynic, too and I mean that in the best possible way.

1. Go back up to the part about not saying facebook and saying social media. If you really are that passionate about Facebook call into a PC meeting. Owlsa runs them and they are swift, pleasant, efficient, and effective. Or go create the best PDF group ever on Ello and people may come flocking to it.

2. "Some people have a way with words. Other people no have way." You have a way with words. You are right, there is a lot of stale stuff that is not getting done anytime soon. You have the power to make things get done! Contact web team, contact the BOD and ask if they need help disseminating info. You might be just the guy web team is looking for.

3. Totes agree that the official fb page should be marked. Totes agree an imposter page is a massive hilar-a-troll that has a right to exist.

4. There is an official page. At the GLC members of the PDF BOD chatted w/ other regionals including, Flipside, Transformus, and Element 11 who all seemed to have a HEAVILY moderated dry as toast official FB page and free-for-all-brawls of fan pages they didn't touch. Since PDF is older than MySpace (ha!) the FB fan page came first and the cliche that goes here makes you say ha.

5. Immediacy. Personally, I don't want any virtual burn community to ever be > real life for me. Individual results may vary, though. Owlsa is right, send Virgins to the PONY. Let them read old WWWs to get ideas for art grants or activities. Or go start your own warm fuzzy pdf community thing somewhere

In conclusion Booga, you write good, you give a damn, you read all the stuff. You could probably fix tons of it. I mean that. Since I left the BOD IMHO PDF official comms have been lacking a shepherd. Your post, really moved me to re-examine why I volunteered so hard for PDF. Your thoughtful post, f word aside, resonated with me.

"I volunteered because it hurt too much to see stuff done badly or not done at all."

 Post subject: Re: Facebook Groups
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:18 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:50 am
Posts: 1
Recently I also saw my friend making tremendous profit with the online marketing methods and that too for his business that is just a couple of months old. He suggested me too to use the facebook ads management services and Pay Per Click Advertising services. I also have now found that the results are amazing with these.

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