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 Post subject: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:49 am 
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Dear Friends:

Found this link via Facebook, don't remember who, unfortunately:

http://www.abramscreek.com/campforsale.html

It's a bit far out, closest to Pittsburgh, but near a major Interstate and the WVA/MD border. 20 acres on two adjacent and separate tax parcels, a creek, two buildings and opening price is around $700K for both, probably could lop a lot off of that with a serious offer. (This is my first quick read on the prospectus).

Obviously, a major selling point is that they are currently an established campground/event facility, which is a lot better than converting farmland somewhere into a camp space, especially as a large amount of the infrastructure for numerous people is in place (presumably). What to do with the land when PDF is not there? Program events!


Regards,

Gerald
Committee for Public Safety Co-Chair


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:07 pm 
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Gerald wrote:
20 acres on two adjacent and separate tax parcels


You do realize that we're already using roughly 12 acres for camping (though that does include vet clubhouse, memorials, etc), plus another 5-6 acres for parking, at VVMC/DE, right? And that's not counting roughly 2-3x that space (Vet area, friendly neighbor field, corn/hay fields, etc) used for noise setback, which, as it turns out, is not quite enough setback to prevent other neighbor noise complaints.

I believe the goal is 50-ish acres (with limited neighbors), which gives PDF enough space for A: expansion and B: a "no turndown" sound camp area.


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:20 pm 
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Location: Vineland NJ
Is KANSAS too far


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:20 am 
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Thanks for the suggestion G.

Rev Dave, you seem to have a handle on some exact specs for the land. Wanna share?


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:18 pm 
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Dear Reverend Dave:

I know full well the size of PDF, as I have access to public land records, as well as using Google Earth and "marching" off the general land borders. My own estimates also put the usable area inside the PDF borders at the same 12 acres, with the assorted "unusable" acres cordoned off by the Vets. There is also the other parcel which is used for parking that I think put the whole site at around 25 acres. I had previously sized up PDF to more or less show that a buddy's idea for a small burn up at a place in Centre County, PA was not really feasible for the number of folks he was hoping on inviting, as the site was much smaller and had more limited access than PDF.

I had mentioned the WVA site because the prospectus for the land said that it had been used in the past for music festivals and the like. Granted, PDF "bang bang bang" music usages are different than the standard music festival, but I thought it indicative of either permissive neighbors, or at least ones that may be remote from possible usage areas. Not to mention the fact that it already had buildings on site, and could be used for other things besides PDF twice a year.

Following up with what Miss Fidget said, is there in fact a PDF prospectus or flyer or a list of criteria that have been shopped around to real estate agents, developers, etc in re: land? With the small bit of experience I have had in the field of real estate, to have someone say plainly that we just need "50 or 60 acres" is rather simplistic, without considering the other features, such as linkages, proximate population centers, topography, flood plains, prior site improvements (drainage ditches? Old barns? Gravel pit?), utilities, surrounding usages, possible easements or encumbrances or restrictive covenants, surrounding demographics, et cetera. For instance, finding a virginal sylvan glen that's impossible to get to or that can't be legally developed into residential units or can only be used as farm- or open land is probably the reason why it's still virginal.

60 acres will not save you from a township or county sheriff with a bug up his ass; nor driving 1/2 hour down a easily washed out graveled path, nor being downwind from a municipal trash pit or 30 miles from the nearest wide spot in the road that's passing for a town. Prior use as a musical venue (on the other hand) might, because if there are any noise complaints or people agonizing over an influx of hippies, to show that the site has long been used for events known to cause sound or large transient populations for a week or long weekend over the course of normal usage then that can help destroy a noise or usage complaint. If you bought a house next to an existing nuclear power plant, you can't exactly plead ignorance or sue to stop fission there. Caveat emptor and all that.

So if there are requirements or a general list of criteria that's floating around, I'd love to look at it. Right off the top of my head, I'd say there are probably three regions close by which would have the space necessary at a relatively low price: West Virginia/Western Maryland; Central PA from Allegheny County east to Chester County, while skipping the Dauphin/York/Lancaster corridor (where farmland is at a premium because of the population expansion and the growing Amish population) and fanning up and out like an inverted triangle towards Erie and Scranton/Wilkes-Barre; and Southern NY near the PA Border below Syracuse and between Jamestown and Binghamton, NY. And possibly a more limited 4th, not too far away from PDF's current site: the US 301 corridor in Maryland between the Chesapeake Bay and the DE border.

Rural population, large undeveloped parcels or farmland that are not likely to ever be developed for any other purposes as they are too far away from employment centers (or in the fourth option, located on the other side of the Chesapeake where there's no infrastructure for easy transit to Baltimore or Fort Meade/Aberdeen Proving Ground/wherever have you and still too far away from the City of Dover / Dover AFB).

Thanks,

Gerald


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:11 am 
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I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe the BOD president and some other folks already checked out this particular site and found it had too many inclines and was generally too hilly for our purposes.


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Jill, the site you're referring to was Buffalo Gap. We met B.K. Haynes out there for a tour, and while it was a nice site, it was too much infrastructure and too little flat land to be of use to us, not to mention WAY out of our price range at $1.5M.

While Abrams Creek is a gorgeous site and the owner is a stand-up guy that I can only say good things about, it is both too small and too far west. Abrams Creek is 3h from DC, 5h from Philly, 5:45 from NYC, and 9:30 from Boston. Generally speaking for distance, we've been trying to keep it within 3.5 hours for DC/Baltimore/Philly/NYC. Boston is always going to be a good bit farther, but they've already made that choice, and we can only try to not make it significantly worse!

It's also got a LOT more infrastructure than we require, and in a non useful fashion for us. I'm all for prebuilt stuff we can use, but it only has 40 campsites (plus 10 cabins). Vince (the owner) specs the campground at 240 people if everything is full, which won't even come close to meeting our current needs in terms of space unless we ignore the existing campsites, trample the fern covered woodlands and pack them in tight. Not good, that lovely a site deserves better treatment than that, and since it is priced as a "turnkey campground" I'd prefer it go to someone who can make use of it as such. We would not be good stewards of that small a piece of lush forest with the load we present. Although having the ability to host other groups is a goal, this is not really a good way to go about it - we need infrastructure that meets our needs first, and owning a small campground with a nice B&B next door ain't it ;-).

The current combined ask of $640k is already down from the initial $695k, but we can buy 125 acres for that much money. There's a very fine line to walk when balancing raw versus improved land. The 125 is effectively raw (the 1860 cabin on it is probably a tear down if not registered historic, listing states "has restoration/rehab possibilities" - haha), and the 20 here is WAY more improved than we want. Somewhere in the middle would be nice!

Oh, and as an aside - "music festivals" to Vince mean two people singing along with an acoustic guitar and a djembe. Not really relevant in this case, but an excellent general point about previous usage. Buffalo Gap would have been perfect in that vein since it hosted larger music festivals if it had been flatter, cheaper, and with fewer major buildings on it. But it was a children's summer camp dating to the 50's, and we don't need a 10,000 sq ft gymnasium either ;-)

-dd

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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Gerald,

One site that has been browsed frequently is landsofamerica.com. Several promising, fairly cheap properties are listed,
but most of them are way out in places like Potter, Tioga or even Crawford counties. Also, they are unimproved and
would require extensive road beds, drainage planning, wood clearing, etc. Ideally we'd find a site at least 50 acres,
isolated and with basic road/drainage work already done. A rough long term plan is to grow to about the same size
as Flipside in Texas, 2-3000 people. Right now we sell out 1300 tickets every time.

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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:26 pm 
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AndyWing wrote:
Also, they are unimproved and would require extensive road beds, drainage planning, wood clearing, etc. Ideally we'd find a site at least 50 acres, isolated and with basic road/drainage work already done.


We can just give everyone a shovel at check-in for the first PDF at our unimproved new home, and have things sorted out in time to burn the pony. (Yes, I'm joking.)

More seriously: A significant chunk of the current PDF site has lousy drainage and dirt roads. If we have a choice between a larger (but less improved) site, and a smaller (improved) site, we probably should give serious consideration to the larger site. A rented backhoe can crank out "good enough" access and drainage ditches surprisingly quickly (unless it's a "inch of soil on top of bedrock" environment). We'd still need some road improvements for things like portapotties (and parking for theme camp trucks, larger RVs, busses, etc), but that would presumably be a small fraction of access roads. (Longer term, we'd definitely want to look at grading, strategic planting, and otherwise improving the property, but that's then...)

For land search, we might also want to check court records for tax sales and Farmer Mac-affiliated banks for bank-owned properties. (Unfortunately, the mentioned states all handle tax sales on a county-by-county basis...)


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Oh, BTW... Does anybody know what our price range is? I'm guessing anything with the word "million" in it is Right Out(tm), but beyond that...


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:01 pm 
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reverend_dave wrote:
Oh, BTW... Does anybody know what our price range is? I'm guessing anything with the word "million" in it is Right Out(tm), but beyond that...


Say half that... if we can keep it in that ballpark we should be in good shape. If we have to push a bit above there we probably can, but in today's market it's looking more and more like that's a pretty sweet spot to be in.

-dd

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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:37 pm 
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As much as I see the advantages to PDF owning it's own land, I hate the idea of it being anywhere else. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:39 pm 
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So http://www.landwatch.com/Worcester-Coun ... /130002856 would be significantly outside our price range? (Of course, I'm being too lazy to actually pull up local community details and see if, for instance, it's immediately adjacent to a DEA drug dog training facility or something...)


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:10 pm 
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Location: Vineland NJ
reverend_dave wrote:
AndyWing wrote:
Also, they are unimproved and would require extensive road beds, drainage planning, wood clearing, etc. Ideally we'd find a site at least 50 acres, isolated and with basic road/drainage work already done.


We can just give everyone a shovel at check-in for the first PDF at our unimproved new home, and have things sorted out in time to burn the pony. (Yes, I'm joking.)

More seriously: A significant chunk of the current PDF site has lousy drainage and dirt roads. If we have a choice between a larger (but less improved) site, and a smaller (improved) site, we probably should give serious consideration to the larger site. A rented backhoe can crank out "good enough" access and drainage ditches surprisingly quickly (unless it's a "inch of soil on top of bedrock" environment). We'd still need some road improvements for things like portapotties (and parking for theme camp trucks, larger RVs, busses, etc), but that would presumably be a small fraction of access roads. (Longer term, we'd definitely want to look at grading, strategic planting, and otherwise improving the property, but that's then...)

For land search, we might also want to check court records for tax sales and Farmer Mac-affiliated banks for bank-owned properties. (Unfortunately, the mentioned states all handle tax sales on a county-by-county basis...)



I agree with Rev Dave, with the base of PDF people we have, I bet we could round up some good back hoe operators and other talents. With the new site we could go back to basic's similar to Scorch Nuts or Burning Man. Woods, lots of meadows and mowed flat land. Only portapotties, you bring your own water and pack out all your trash.

If we get a site with a small house it could be rented out cheap or free to a caretaker who would mow and do minor work onsite before and after PDF. NO mater what you buy, you'll need a small tractor or small tractor size back hoe with a mower to plant and keep the grass down.


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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:10 pm 
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BUTTER BEAN wrote:
I agree with Rev Dave, with the base of PDF people we have, I bet we could round up some good back hoe operators and other talents. With the new site we could go back to basic's similar to Scorch Nuts or Burning Man. Woods, lots of meadows and mowed flat land. Only portapotties, you bring your own water and pack out all your trash.


This is pretty realistic. We've gotten pretty darn spoiled with all the vet infrastructure and are unlikely to be able to match that on an initial buy. I'm looking forward to it, honestly.

BUTTER BEAN wrote:
If we get a site with a small house it could be rented out cheap or free to a caretaker who would mow and do minor work onsite before and after PDF.

Agreed. Room and board in exchange for caretaking is pretty likely to happen at some point.

BUTTER BEAN wrote:
NO mater what you buy, you'll need a small tractor or small tractor size back hoe with a mower to plant and keep the grass down.

That or contract with a local farmer with said equipment to do it for us. Depends on how much field to maintain. At some point the equipment to keep up with it is unreasonable for us to buy outright.

reverend_dave wrote:
So http://www.landwatch.com/Worcester-Coun ... /130002856 would be significantly outside our price range?


It's a stretch IMO, but tempting for the space. It IS one of two that I've made note of in Worcester. The pics of flooded fields don't give me a lot of confidence we'd be any better off than we are now, if that's the best they can do in the promo pics than yikes. ;-)

The other is 195 acres of woods for $595k. I like that one because it has a couple of hunting roads across the property and because some of it backs up onto more woods. But it is 100% hunting area, no pasture at all (ie no place to park/burn/theme camp, and that'd be a damn lot to clear initially), and looks like it is next to a poultry farm (mmm smell that from miles away).

My concerns for Eastern Shore are primarily due to the flatness - some terrain on a medium parcel will do a much better job at absorbing and diffusing sound than no terrain and a large parcel, and something above sea level helps with the wetlands issues we've had plenty of fun with already. I noted one property recently that advertised itself as "40 acres of uplands and 60 acres of wetlands" - hahahah. At least they're honest.

-dd

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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:22 pm 
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Hmm, speaking of Worcester County, maybe we could buy Assacorkin Island. Just for the name. :-D

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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:38 pm 
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Huh. THAT''S a new one. That 234 acres? Here's the adjacent neighbor immediately along the north side of the property:
http://www.thebayclub.com/

Plus of having a golf course as a neighbor: No one to wake up at 3am.

Minus of having a golf course as a neighbor: pissing off old rich uptight white men when they can't concentrate on their game due to the bass beat drifting across the fairway on a gorgeous holiday weekend afternoon.

Discuss. I'm not sure what to think of this little feature!

Half a dozen houses right along the south edge, too.

Also, this particular property is less than two miles west of the center of Berlin (population 4,000) itself, and just about dead-on one mile to the nearest development. On ground this flat, they'll still be able to hear the bass. Probably not offensively so, but noticeably so. Do we care to have a development of ~175 houses (say, 600 people) be able to tell we are awake all night? Probably not. :-S

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 Post subject: Re: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:31 am 
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Daveious wrote:
Plus of having a golf course as a neighbor: No one to wake up at 3am.


Turndown at 5AM instead of midnight. Not quite what the sound camps are hoping for, but a whole bunch better than what they got now.

Daveious wrote:
Minus of having a golf course as a neighbor: pissing off old rich uptight white men when they can't concentrate on their game due to the bass beat drifting across the fairway on a gorgeous holiday weekend afternoon.


I suspect that the sound camps will accept the limits of "no daytime bass" in exchange for "no nighttime turndown". :)

Daveious wrote:
Half a dozen houses right along the south edge, too.


We hit them with subsonic heavy bass until they give up and sell cheap, then we buy the houses as caretaker residences! (Yes, I'm joking about that.)

Though, given the demographics that far south on the delmarva, it's entirely possible that the occupants of some or all of those houses are old folks who are mostly deaf after the hearing aids come out at night...


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 Post subject: Camp site in WVA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:19 am 
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Location: Россия
Map 2a – Bushfire CLOSURE between River Road and Swamp Oak Camp Site

The Bibbulmun Track is CLOSED for 6km between River Road and Swamp Oak Camp Site due to a bushfire which is currently to the north of the Track. Please note that Swamp Oak Camp Site is still open, although walkers should not proceed any further north along the Track towards Dwellingup.

DO NOT ENTER this closed section of Track under any circumstances. There is currently no diversion in operation.

For further information, please contact DPaW Mundaring on 08 9290 6100.

Andrew

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