P . O . N . Y .

Planning and Organization Needs You!
It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 pm
Posts: 33
Proposal:

Many other burns reserve a number of tickets for "leadership" of other events. This allows for cross-pollination of ideas, sharing of best practices, and shadowing of their counter parts. This practice is being encouraged by the Burning Man Project. 10 tickets will be reserved for active Board members, Producers, Coordinators, and Leads of other Regional Burns, as well as other Burning Man Regional Contacts.

_________________
Dove aka Starfish
--------------------
PDF BOD
PortalBurn BOD
Burning Man Regional Contact - Upstate NY 1/3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 pm
Posts: 33
Possible addition:

Individuals who are interested in coming to the event will only be allowed on site once their "counterpart" is available so that they may work along side said counterpart. This may include early entry, and this early entry would be the same as the corresponding counterpart. Those coming would be required to actually WORK along side their counterpart, which may include actually completing tasks as well as observing, taking notes, asking questions etc.

_________________
Dove aka Starfish
--------------------
PDF BOD
PortalBurn BOD
Burning Man Regional Contact - Upstate NY 1/3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 pm
Posts: 33
WHY:

I was unbelivably allowed and lucky to participate in EVERY aspect of Freeform production. I was invited early to work with Producers and Coordinators, and I was invited to stay for DPW/Exodus, and THEN invited to spend 48 hours with their post production team. This was beyond insightful.

I would also propose that "someone" (I think I'm the likely person to do this) reach out to ALL other burns and ask that they have the same policy, which would be shared among our leadership team so that we too have the opportunity to go to events that sell out quickly. Again, the purpose would be for idea sharing and shadowing. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Tfus, or Flipside (they already have tickets set aside for us BTW).

_________________
Dove aka Starfish
--------------------
PDF BOD
PortalBurn BOD
Burning Man Regional Contact - Upstate NY 1/3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:02 am
Posts: 6
I viscerally dislike this idea. That is to say that I'm going to try and mount an argument about why it should not be adopted, but that argument is an ex post facto rationalization of my emotional reaction.

I think that reserve tickets are already something of a questionable issue that is a compromise between a fundamental value of keeping everyone equal and having equal access to tickets weighed against some individuals being essential to the operation of the event. People who adopt significant responsibilities at other events are not essential to the operation of PDF, so I think this seems like it does not fall under the justification of reserve tickets.

I do appreciate the value of trying to cross pollinate ideas and to build up our own unique little culture to be something more than isolated pockets of radical hippies, but are reserve tickets essential to that goal? I think they are not. We can just as readily organize by unofficial means to gather tickets to draw people from other events and bring them to PDF.

Reserve tickets for responsible participants at other events is not consistent with the justification of reserve tickets, and it is not essential to the desired outcome of building stronger ties to other events who share our values. I don't think it's a good idea.

_________________
Onsite Ranger Coordinator


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:43 am
Posts: 21
Great idea. Most of the best ideas I had while Greeter Coordinator were things I stole from people I met from other burns at the GLC.

I would probably want to make a condition of the ticket be that they also agree to submit their own afterburn report with their observations and suggestions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:28 pm
Posts: 92
I am having the same reaction as Animal, tho I'm intrigued by the fact that BM.org is encouraging and suggesting this practice for all regional burns (if I'm understanding what Starfish is saying correctly). If the proposal were to go through, I love Damian's addition of the afterburn report. Oh, to see us as others see us - that would be interesting!

Thank you, Animal, for putting into words what I was feeling and also having a hard time expressing!

_________________
former coordinator :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:07 pm
Posts: 223
I'm also not a fan of this idea. It really starts to itch of elitism to me. I do think it's a good idea to mix it up with other burns and share ideas and see how things are done elsewhere, but that idea is really in no way dependent on new pools of reserve tickets being created. It can just happen on its own.

It sounds to me like the first step in this process would simply be reaching out to other burn BODs and coords, etc., and expressing an interest in showing up, volunteering with them, and talking shop. And also potentially inviting them to do the same with us (though more on the conditions of that later). There isn't anything stopping folks from doing that by way of the normal ticketing processes. Yes some burns are harder to score tickets for than others are, but I don't think that is at all an insurmountable obstacle. Especially if the leaders of the other burns are invested enough in the idea to be scoping for extra tickets for us (and us for them), I really don't think it would be an issue except for occasionally.

And as was already said, it's simply not essential to the running of the event to have other event leaders there. It's a cool idea, but the idea doesn't require special reserves.


I want to add, I also strongly dislike the idea of other event leaders being invited to shadow their counterparts in our departments without the enthusiastic invitation of the person/people they would be shadowing. There are likely enough of us who would enthusiastically talk shop about what we do with others that there's really no reason to have it pushed on anyone who'd rather just go about their job and get it done without the extra involvement.

_________________
Planning Committee Coordinator


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 pm
Posts: 33
d a m i a n wrote:
Great idea. Most of the best ideas I had while Greeter Coordinator were things I stole from people I met from other burns at the GLC.

I would probably want to make a condition of the ticket be that they also agree to submit their own afterburn report with their observations and suggestions.


I think that is a great addition too. I can't stress enough how valuable these experiences have been as far as sharing best practices and learning from others, and just as importantly to share our best practices, of which there are many.

I can understand some of the hesitation, and given that these individuals would be working along side folks as volunteers, I do see it as being very helpful to the longevity of the event plus providing extra hands that we already request for most departments with the ability to learn and grow.

I was shocked at how many shifts were filled at Freeform; they have very little problems getting Volunteers including medics and licensed mental health professionals. Tfus too. How do they do that? What can they look at in our processes and offer suggestions?

IMO it's short sighted to ignore the long term value of this.

_________________
Dove aka Starfish
--------------------
PDF BOD
PortalBurn BOD
Burning Man Regional Contact - Upstate NY 1/3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 pm
Posts: 33
Owsla wrote:
There isn't anything stopping folks from doing that by way of the normal ticketing processes. Yes some burns are harder to score tickets for than others are, but I don't think that is at all an insurmountable obstacle. Especially if the leaders of the other burns are invested enough in the idea to be scoping for extra tickets for us (and us for them), I really don't think it would be an issue except for occasionally.


I don't agree that it's only an issue occasionally. Many many other burns are selling out in a minute. I'd love to bring some input in from those other burns that do have these reserve tickets.

Let me also clarify - it's not that other burns "scope tickets," they actually have them set aside.

The Regional community has grown by leaps and bounds and frankly we are not tapped into it. We are not taking advantage of how the greater community can help us grow and improve, and ignores how we can help shape other burns. This is an opportunity to build relationships and see how we can fit into that greater community. How we fit into the greater Burning Man Community IMO is essential for the organization as a whole, of which the event is obviously a major part of.

Elitism - If they are providing a service that can improve our event, I don't see it that way. I see it as us taking advantage of all the resources we have available to us. This is part of being part of the regional network.

_________________
Dove aka Starfish
--------------------
PDF BOD
PortalBurn BOD
Burning Man Regional Contact - Upstate NY 1/3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:41 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:26 pm
Posts: 59
Location: South Boston, VA
Quote:
The Regional community has grown by leaps and bounds and frankly we are not tapped into it. We are not taking advantage of how the greater community can help us grow and improve, and ignores how we can help shape other burns. This is an opportunity to build relationships and see how we can fit into that greater community. How we fit into the greater Burning Man Community IMO is essential for the organization as a whole, of which the event is obviously a major part of.

Elitism - If they are providing a service that can improve our event, I don't see it that way. I see it as us taking advantage of all the resources we have available to us. This is part of being part of the regional network.



I'm all for anything to help others out while getting help!

_________________
Radar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:07 pm
Posts: 223
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not convinced that reserve tickets are essential for this to work. Is there a barrier to first trying to implement the idea without reserve tickets and seeing how it goes?

I will also say, it sort of seems to me that some aspect of this is privilege. It's the candy of being personally invited to an event with the guarantee of a ticket for one's position and expertise at a separate event. It's the idea that people might not bother to come and do this thing with us unless they are given reserve ticket candy.

Yes, some burns do sell out in minutes. But a lot of burn leaders still manage to make it around big burn circuits every year. And what I don't see is the necessity in having any single one of those people be at any single one of those events. Because sure, maybe not all the PDF coords and BOD members will score tickets to all of the burns they'd be interested in going to in a given year, but in my experience most do end up scoring tickets for at least a bunch of the burns that they're considering in a year, so yes we do already have the general capability to mix it up with other burns.

We can certainly extend invitations to other burn leaders to come to PDF with the goal of fostering that sort of idea sharing, I just don't really see the argument for it having reserve tickets attached to it.

_________________
Planning Committee Coordinator


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 pm
Posts: 33
Owsla wrote:

I will also say, it sort of seems to me that some aspect of this is privilege. It's the candy of being personally invited to an event with the guarantee of a ticket for one's position and expertise at a separate event. It's the idea that people might not bother to come and do this thing with us unless they are given reserve ticket candy.
--------------------
We can certainly extend invitations to other burn leaders to come to PDF with the goal of fostering that sort of idea sharing, I just don't really see the argument for it having reserve tickets attached to it.


I would have never ever gone to Freeform if I didn't get a ticket to the event. I think others would say, as I said about FF, "Well PDF really isn't my thing, the need to make advanced plans since I'm coming from a longer distance, the scarcity of tickets until the last minute...I'm just not going to scramble and make a huge deal of it since it's not something event wise I have explicit interest in...HOWEVER if I was there to work, and to share, and to use it as a growth opportunity, AND I didn't have to spend weeks online to get a ticket, then I would go." That's what happened to me and the value was tremendous. I think it was tremendous for their Producers as well (and out of that will be coming a Mid-Atlantic Roundtable Retreat, coming soon to a city near you!).

The point isn't really to give them "privilege" of coming to the event, it's drawing on their knowledge and sharing ours for the good of the entire regional community. I see those as two different things. I didn't see it as a "privilege" to go to Freeform...until it was over, and I saw the outcome. Then the privilege was the learning, not the fun (HA! Not that the fun wasn't immensely fun!).

It would also be pretty easy to set up criteria for a reserve ticket:

1. Afterburn reports
2. Participation in a PC call to see how that works
3. Volunteering XX shifts
4. ?

There are ways to make it very clear that this is designed to be both a work and play date.

_________________
Dove aka Starfish
--------------------
PDF BOD
PortalBurn BOD
Burning Man Regional Contact - Upstate NY 1/3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:20 am
Posts: 6
Dove,
Can you provide more information on how a delegate would receive/be selected for the reserve ticket? I understand a program like this could be beneficial, but I can understand how someone could be perceive this as "elitism".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 pm
Posts: 33
mtoohey wrote:
Dove,
Can you provide more information on how a delegate would receive/be selected for the reserve ticket? I understand a program like this could be beneficial, but I can understand how someone could be perceive this as "elitism".


Sure. I envision it as there are XX tickets reserved for those who are :
1. Currently involved in the production of an official (unofficial? dunno) Regional Burn, or
2. An official Burning Man Regional Contact who wants to bring the information to their greater community, and
3. Is interested in the "learning exchange" aspect

There could be an application process outlining the expectations of the exchange and also a short part of the "why" they are interested. What is their role at their event? What do they hope to get out of this? What will they be bringing to the table?

I don't think it would be like a "lets vote on this," but rather if they apply and agree to the "terms" they would have a reserve ticket available to them.

_________________
Dove aka Starfish
--------------------
PDF BOD
PortalBurn BOD
Burning Man Regional Contact - Upstate NY 1/3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:01 am
Posts: 538
Sorry Dove but I have to disagree on the not being tapped into other regionals statement. Lots of PDFers are very much involved in other burns, and I personally subscribe to lists for Firefly in Vermont, the Florida Burns and Flipside in Texas.

Reading what other burns experience, how they get volunteers, the problems they encounter on line is very helpful. Besides, you can read the opinions of many. many people, instead of just getting the opinions of one or two.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:07 pm
Posts: 223
Starfish wrote:
I would have never ever gone to Freeform if I didn't get a ticket to the event. I think others would say, as I said about FF, "Well PDF really isn't my thing, the need to make advanced plans since I'm coming from a longer distance, the scarcity of tickets until the last minute...I'm just not going to scramble and make a huge deal of it since it's not something event wise I have explicit interest in...HOWEVER if I was there to work, and to share, and to use it as a growth opportunity, AND I didn't have to spend weeks online to get a ticket, then I would go." That's what happened to me and the value was tremendous. I think it was tremendous for their Producers as well (and out of that will be coming a Mid-Atlantic Roundtable Retreat, coming soon to a city near you!).


I am very happy that you had that experience, but I don't think it's tied to this idea of reserve tickets. I think you're possibly confusing the part about your experience that made it worthwhile in terms of cross-pollinating ideas - which was born out of the welcome and ongoing invitations of the event organizers for you to get that experience with them - with your other personal experiences of the burn - which include that you happened to be gifted a free ticket and low-hassle camp setup, etc.

Freeform is not a burn that sells out in minutes (or days, or weeks). So your whole experience there wasn't at all dependent on reserve tickets. You happened to be drawn in at the last minute with an offer of a free ticket (not even reserve, but free!), and then you were also invited into a lot of behind the scenes work and planning and after-burn talking by the event organizers. Both of those are awesome, but they aren't tied together. You could have simply been invited by the organizers to do those same things and then bought a ticket to Freeform. Very cool and lucky for you that you got gifted a ticket, but that's not strictly pertinent to the discussion unless we're gonna start talking about giving away free PDF tickets. ;)


I like that there's also criteria being developed for how to select people to invite, because I do think this is a potentially cool idea, but seems like we can cast a wider net and reach out to and invite more of those people if we aren't limiting ourselves to a small pool of X number of reserve tickets anyways.

_________________
Planning Committee Coordinator


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:02 am
Posts: 6
Can you describe how setting aside reserve tickets for big-muckity-mucks at other burns meets the present criteria for reserve tickets: that the recipient is essential to the functioning of the event?

Either this question should be answered in the affirmative, or there should be an entirely different policy discussion about altering the criteria for distributing reserve tickets, and that discussion should be resolved before pursuing this any further.

_________________
Onsite Ranger Coordinator


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 6:32 pm
Posts: 306
I'm not in favor of this for a couple reasons.
1. I've never heard of a sufficiently-motivated individual not being able to find a PDF ticket. (Yeah, it may be a bit of a last-minute scramble, but often anyone seriously involved in "the burner community" will be able to find local counterparts willing to spread the word on their behalf.)
2. There are other ways to get reserved tickets (art, for instance).
3. On-site coordinators can already designate specific individuals as essential volunteers (assuming they believe the specific individual is going to be an essential volunteer) and get them reserved tickets.

By the time someone is looking for one of these reserve tickets, we've already established that they aren't particularly motivated, social, artistic, or persuasive-to-existing-coordinators, and yet, they get a reserved ticket. Meanwhile, a coordinator (who may already have other things to do during the event) is stuck babysitting someone (possibly someone who they've already decided they didn't want to 'essential personnel' in).

Also, why are BM RCs on this list? BM RCs, by definition, are BM's people; if they don't have another hat to wear, they aren't even essential to the operation of their "home" event, let alone PDF.

Also... Amazing as it may sound, people who are useful at one event are often useful at other events, often doing what they know, and consequently, in many cases already have working relationships with their counterparts at other events.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:43 am
Posts: 21
Would the perception of this proposal change at all if the structure was shifted from some kind of standing invitation to other events and a new pool of reserves to a structure where the PC just had the ability (which I'm sure that actually do already) to vote to approve a one-time reserve ticket to a PDF department whose coordinator wanted to invite their counterpart at some other burn to come and serve as a temporary assistant coordinator for one burn for the purpose of exchanging ideas.

In this way, all of the good parts of this idea are preserved, but the interested exchange coordinator still needs to jump through some hoops of say submitting an application to the PC and the relevant department's coordinator. If both the coordinator and the PC approve the idea, the exchange coordinator gets nothing more than the same privileges that our own coordinators currently get already.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:07 pm
Posts: 223
Speaking for my own perception, they still aren't necessary for the running of our events, which should really be the end of the conversation here unless we're going to re-envision our whole reserve structure.

If that isn't argument enough, I'll add too that bogging down our PC meetings with this sort of repetitive procedure aimed at giving people special privilege is simply going to make our PC less efficient at its job. Overall it would end up taking up much more time and energy (and for many more people) than it would for any coordinator/BOD member who thinks that their counterpart from some specific burn just has to be at specific PDF to just find a ticket for that person themselves.

But again, really, if anyone wants to talk to a leader from another burn and exchange ideas... just do it. Talking is independent of handing out reserves. Inviting other leaders to come participate and talk shop is independent of handing out reserves. This idea does not need reserves to function.

_________________
Planning Committee Coordinator


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group