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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:03 am 
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I'm hoping we can collaborate in putting this together. For now, I'm going to brainstorm a list of issues that should go on here. Leave your suggestions for other issues that should be added, and most importantly, I need your help in summarizing past discussions on these issues. Also, I need help writing a "diplomatic" intro about how new participants should familiarize themselves with these...uh..."heated" topics before jumping in...

[*]Comps
[*]Dogs

(I'm not even sure if these should go on here?)
[*]Ticket cap
[*]Land search

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:08 pm 
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I'm hoping we can collaborate in putting this together. For now, I'm going to brainstorm a list of issues that should go on here. Leave your suggestions for other issues that should be added, and most importantly, I need your help in summarizing past discussions on these issues. Also, I need help writing a "diplomatic" intro about how new participants should familiarize themselves with these...uh..."heated" topics before jumping in...

[*]Comps
The Planning Committee members have repeatedly discussed this very heated topic since at least 2002. We've discussed giving complimentary tickets to the following groups: team leads, to our medical volunteers, to our board members, to DJ's, to people in a band who perform for free, to people who perform in anything for free, to members of really cool theme camps, to people who have been participating in any significant way not mentioned above.

The members of the Planning Committee have changed over the years by the way, as people's jobs, lives, and priorities always change. We have always voted to NOT give out comp tickets to ANYONE. (We do not pay anyone to do any part of the planning of this event, and that includes board members). Our reasoning comes from the fact that so many people participate in so many significant ways, that to select one group and put them above the others would be one or all of the following: 1. Unfair - who is to say what group is more significant? If I say the board is more important than the theme camps, is that really true in everyone's mind? 2. Scope does not match - we're not Burning Man where people spend two weeks or two months before or after setting up/tearing down. Cannot compare the two events in terms of volunteerism and paid crew. 3. If you give comps to all groups who think they should get it, you'll probably end up with 500 free tickets and will need to raise the price of the ticket just to break even. Does that really make any sense at all? <Feel free to add more arguments here>

[*]Dogs Many of us own dogs and are dog lovers. This event involves a lot of people interacting in many ways and a milliion distractions; we have found through experience, that it is simply not an appropriate place to bring your dog. I realize that you are a really responsible dog owner and that your dog is good. However, it's impossible to allow only "good" dog owners and "good dogs" and not allow "bad" ones. Who is to say that you are a good dog owner and that I am a bad one? The reality is, in the last three burns before the dog ban went into effect, the number of dog bites went from one to four - and that's just the ones we heard about. We banned dogs to eliminate the dog fights and the humans breaking them up, who invariably, get bitten. Please go to every Regional website and Burning Man's site, and let us know who still allows dogs to come. You'll find that none do. (I could not find a single one that still allows dogs) There's good reason for it.

(I'm not even sure if these should go on here?) I think any topic that has come up repeatedly should go on here. Definitely these two. Also, I would add: children under 18.
[*]Ticket cap
[*]Land search


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:24 pm 
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Thanks, Jamie! I'll wait a while, and when I have a bit more to work with I'll start editing everything into the first post.

Also, re: Dogs, this is a decision that was made by the planning committee. It could be brought up for vote again if someone came up with a proposal to remedy the past issues we've had with dogs. A few people have worked on drafting proposals, but so far, one has not been approved. The ban on dogs does not extend to service dogs, which ARE permitted at PDF.

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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:56 pm 
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My 2 cents

I don't think there should be comp tickets for anybody, but the board, selected art grant artists and selected heads of the different departments, should have reserved "pay for" tickets even if its only one or 2 max. But even this can get out of hand, so a firm policy has to be made and followed. And some of those left out will feel that special consideration was made for somebodys friend so the process maybe should be made public, transparent and based on prior volunterisum and service.

From a post I just read it seems even Joanna didn't get a ticket in either tier directly. I remember the last burn I hook up 2 GODS for tickets through a friend.

As for dogs I think the ban is a good thing. But what about other pets. Should they bring proof of vacination or health cert, before bring them to PDF. Do we ban Cats yet? I know its silly but I seen a few on leashes but not at PDF.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:35 am 
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BUTTER BEAN wrote:
From a post I just read it seems even Joanna didn't get a ticket in either tier directly. I remember the last burn I hook up 2 GODS for tickets through a friend.


I have my own personal ticket and my husband has one (a friend who did get tickets in the first round gave them to us, so I didn't end up needing to use my reserve ticket), I've been looking for a couple for friends.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:23 pm 
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A couple of ideas:

Voting process, Board members (at large etc)
Current application procedures for art grants in a separate faq

Leave no trace and principles that pdf has come up like clean up and your mom isn't here to clean up.....not sure how to do this but repetition never hurts and It would be free) (Wiki and the website cover a lot but this could provide more clarity.

Process. Who decides what exactly.

Consider clarifying -
Ticket issues (more tiers? eliminate per transaction quota or at least lower it). A small theme camp could easily buy a dozen on the current numbers. Single members of no theme camp association have bought 12, Yep, 12, and then sold them off or donated them -hoarding happens. Not as bad as some may think but it's a direction of pdf thing. It can't be inclusive when those who are attempting to attend with bringing regional bm elements that reflect the art pdf cares about if folks who bring it simply cannot attend.

Ticket price - I love it.

Pony apps - process, blinded, committee decided or effigy goddess Jill? I don't know that it'll help but it's a lot of work sometimes and one reviewer / decider seems a little off. PS: Jill I love you but am offering a bit of help if you need it. I'm sure others would too.

art grants - I'd like to know the budget allocated for art grants for this spring but cannot seem to find it just yet.
is this still board controlled with arts grants volunteer votes? It doesn't seem clear at this point to me at all.

website and ticket issues (is help needed)

Alternative volunteer incentives. A party is great but even better is considering the reach out to each theme camp, each virgin, simple human contact. Not more rules or anything. That reach out makes for a safer time and a really great burn for all imho. When it's an art organization it is very important to consider the mission so I'm thining of this in terms of how does it reflect pdf's mission as a art non prof.

Land search or a mission statement from the board.....could put land purchase in here. This would be a board decision most likely but the documents are all public. Maybe a FAQ ?


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:58 pm 
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As for dogs I think the ban is a good thing. But what about other pets. Should they bring proof of vacination or health cert, before bring them to PDF. Do we ban Cats yet? I know its silly but I seen a few on leashes but not at PDF.[/quote]

There are few cats that become vicious at pdf but definitely some who have come in recent years. When it's come to dogs, it's been neglect issues, no shelter, water and dog fights (including human bites). In over five years now of being heavy involved, I've not heard of a cat attack though I could be wrong.

I would not recommend ever bringing a cat or dog unless your animal is very comfortable, has been in large crowds and the owner has full responsibility if something bad happens.

There are great animals and people who are responsible, no doubt. The reality is that there are vvmc animals on site (dogs, cats, roosters lol).

The ban or whatever is to protect both the org, the participants, and the animals themselves. The recently vvmc owned pit was I think hit by a vehicle and died last year was sweet to me but seemed to hate most men and really didn't like the dogs in his territory. It's about radical responsibility. There hasn't been that for lots of dog visitors so I get the ban. I voted for it.

I've encountered tons n tons of dogs at the vvmc, voted for the dog ban after other things were tried. It's a liability thing imho because though a cat can do physical damage, a pit or german shephard or neglected dog can do a whole lot more damage.

Instead of rehashing the ban itself, Proposals are the way to go. Until then, hug your animal kid before coming:)


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 8:22 am 
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I think Jamie's post was a good comprehensive summary of the issue with comps and the dog ban.

A few clarifications though for questions and statements made in other posts -
Comps (Butterbean) - There is a pay for reserved ticket tier for team leads, art grant recipients, up to 3 or 4 board members and some extras for rangers and fire/EMS. The reserved tier can be accessed after the first round of sales by people who are filling eligible roles who were unable to get tickets during the first tier. Any unused tickets from the reserved tier go into the pool for the second round of sales. The decision to reserve some tickets for critical staff was made by the planning committee in 2006 or 2007 and the PC decided to leave it to the board of directors to determine how to reserve them. The tickets are reserved for the critical positions, not specific people. Initially the reserved tier did not include art grant recipients, that was added a burn or two later. I believe there are less than 30 reserved tickets if they are all used. One for each coordinator and co-coordinator position, two for each art grant recipient and I think rangers and EMS/fire get 6 extra to make sure they have sufficient staff since they require special training and skills. Although it has been a while since I have seen the actual list and my numbers could be a bit wrong.

Art Grant budget and process (Tia) - The art grant budget is 10% of the previous event's gross receipts, plus any left over from previous cycles. I don't know the actual budget of this past round, but if there was no carry over from previous cycles it would have been $3500. ($35 per ticket * 1000 tickets * 10%). Although it looks like the budget was more than that. The process is still that applicants send the application to the blinder. The blinder redacts any identifying information, assigns an anonymous email address to the application and forwards the application and the associated email address to the Art Grants Committee. The AGC works with the applicant, fireteam and any other necessary staff to work out any potential issues with the projects and then votes. The AGC is comprised of volunteers and is overseen by at least one member of the Board of Directors to try to ensure that the process is fair and competent. It looks like a little less than $4000 was granted for Spring 2010, provided I found all the recipients in my email archives and hit all the right buttons on the tiny calculator I was using.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 8:47 am 
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Bink wrote:
There is a pay for reserved ticket tier for team leads, art grant recipients, up to 3 or 4 board members and some extras for rangers and fire/EMS. The reserved tier can be accessed after the first round of sales by people who are filling eligible roles who were unable to get tickets during the first tier. Any unused tickets from the reserved tier go into the pool for the second round of sales.


At the last retreat, the board decided to reserve tickets for all board members. Since our current rule is that board members must attend one burn per year, and that missing a burn counts as two missed board meetings (which is the maximum allowed per year before the member is forced to go emeritus), most of us felt it wasn't fair to NOT have a reserve ticket with those requirements in place.

It's in the retreat minutes which haven't been posted online yet, because getting everyone to weigh in on the editing process is like herding cats :) I hope to have them up very soon after the burn.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:32 pm 
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I'm all for board members, certian posts and art grant people haveing reserved (paid) tickets, just think it should be expanded for rangers, gods, first aid, PW's, Fire, and other posts that need to be filled as dictated by the board to ease the work load on board members since they can count on the select people showing up as planned.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:17 pm 
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[Information moved to a new thread, as the "Frequently Discussed Topics" thread is intended as a place to group source the history of FDTs to create an informational resource, as opposed to a place for active discussions of those topics.]


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:51 am 
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Derth, can you please post a new thread with these suggestions?

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, but this "Frequently Discussed Topics" thread is supposed to be more of an FAQ that describes the history of topics that come up a lot, as opposed to a dedicated place to continue discussing those topics.

But now that I think about it, that's not really that clear if you've just wandered in. I'll add a better explanation.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:11 pm 
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Hey Derth.

Don't worry about that income stream honey hole. 20 plus year mortage, structures, buildings, art, water, bathrooms, showers, taxes, utilities, maintenance, will eat it up for our life time.


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